Ancient Thrace and Hellenized Thrace

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

As I understand it, the original Thracians were not Greek, but were Hellenized back in ANcient times. When did this occur? Were the non-Hellenic Thracians a distant relation to Hellenes (ie. Swedes and Danes), or as different as say the Germans and Russians, etc...? Just curious is all. I understand they were Hellenized at some point(s) in history and intermixed with Greeks.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Anyway back to the Thracians, here are some Ancient quotes on Greek speaking Thracians :

---------- a. "When Seuthes heard all that, he said that he trusted all Athenians, because he knows that between him and them there is a kinship, and thus he considers them as his dear friends."

[Seuthes was the King of Southern Thrace]

(Seuthes' ancestor Teres, and First King of the Thracian Odrysians, was in fact Tereus who married the daughter of the Athenian King Pandion and had lands in Phocis. This happened in the remote antiquity. Events described here take place ca. 400 B.C.)

Source:
---------
Xenophon,‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter II, 31


---------- b. (Seuthes replied Maisades was my father, and he ruled the Melanditae, the Thynians and the Tranipsae.[Thracian tribes].

(The Thracian Tribal names are all Hellinic etymologically.)

Source:
---------
Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter II, 32


---------- c. (Xenophon said We intend to go to a place where the soldiers will be able to find food for themselves. There, we will hear what Aristarchus the Spartan has to say and what you have to propose, and we shall choose to go with whomever proposals' sound more beneficial to us.

(King Seuthes replied I know many villages that are not far away one from the other, where food can be found in abudance.

(Seuthes could speak and understand Attic Hellinic, thus he was able to converse with Xenophon, an Athenian, directly without the intervention of an itepreter.)

Source:
---------
Xenophon,‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 8-10


----------- d. When they were close at the gates, and they were preparing themselves to enter and dine, they met a certain Heracleides from Maronia.

(Maronia was a Hellinic City on the Thracian Coast between Abdera and Doriscon Lt. Doriscum. Heracleides was King Seuthes' aid-de-camp.)

Source:
---------
Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 16


----------- e. Then Seuthes arose, and drunk along with Xenophon all the wine in their cups, and then, together, they shed the last drops of the wine on the ground, as a "sponde".

(A "Sponde", was an Archaic Hellinic Custom, documented to be practised at least from the time of the Trojan War. Achilles, Menelaus, Patroclus, Agamemnon, Diomedes, Odysseus, Hector, Paris, Priamus, in short terms everybody as early as 1260 B.C. to honour the Gods. The practicing of the same custom by the Thracians means that, they had common customs with the Hellines.)

Source:
---------
Xenophon,‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 32


----------- f. (Seuthes said Prepare yourselves and wait. When the time is right I shall come with my Peltasts take you and lead you with the help of the Gods.

(Hellines and Thracians had the same Gods, i.e. the twelve Olympian Gods.)

Source:
---------
Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 36


----------- g. And [thus] as a password, they set the name of the Godess Athena, because of the kinship between Athenians and Tracians.

Source:
---------
Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 39


----------- h. (The Thynians, one of the Thracian tribes Seuthes and Xenophon wage war against, attack the Hellino-Thracian Army. Book VII, Chapter IV, 12-19)

(And) they even called out the name of Xenophon as well, and challenged him to step out of the (keep) to kill him, otherwise they threatened him that they would burn him where he stands.

(It is clear that even the Thynian tribesmen, commoners in other words, spoke Hellinic. Knowledge of the Hellinic language was not limited to Noblemen only.)

Source:
---------
Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter IV, 15


----------- i. Because many of the Odrysians left their mountain homes to take part in his [Seuthes'] military operations because they have learned of his achievements.

(Seuthes was the son of the King of the Odrysians, a Thracian tribe that lived in the Thracian mountains, not in the Thracian coast.)

Source:
---------
Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter IV, 21


CONCLUSION:
-----------------
There were clearly many ties, linguistic, cultural, racial, as well as religious between the Thracians and the Hellines.

As the evidence of the Archaic Thracian King Tereus tells us, contacts between the mainland Hellines and the Thracians are as old as at least 8th cent. B.C.


Some other connections as posted above can be found in religion:

Pausanias, Description of Hellas 9.30.1
Tells us how the the Thracian women plotted the death of Orpheus, in this same text we also find a list of other Hellinic Gods.

Again in Pausanias, Description of Hellas 7.5.1
We find that only Thracian women were allowed to enter sanctuary of Herakles at Erythrae he also mentions them visiting the temple of Athena at Priene.



We should also note the very interesting find in 2004 by the Bulgarian archaeologist Georgi Kitov.. He found a mask identical to that known as 'Agammemnon's' acompanied by an Olympic Ring in a tomb, which obviously indicate that these were not mere imports..
Based on the fact that only Hellinic "tribes" took part in the ancient Olympics, these finds could finally "link" the Thracians to ancient Hellas and point to the probability of them being a Hellinic tribe or an early Hellinization...

[akritas]

Orphic I have a question to you.
Do you know in Homer poets if the Thracians mentioned ?
also if you know anything as about the after Odyssia poet?

Thanks

[Mygdonia]

Thracians allied with the Aechaens in the Trojan war and they were mentioned by Homer many times.

I think Thracians can be defined as "Red Neck Greeks"

They were using a Greek alphabet but not using the Greek language [however no one knows the exact syntax of the Thracian Language]. One scholarly paper I read stated that Thracian to Greek was similar to High and Low German.

Even Macedonians had their own dialect.

Cypriots and Pontians have their own dialect today.

I don't think there is any doubt the southern part of Thrace was majority Greek the northern part of Thrace was majority Scythian.

Thracians worshipped Greek gods Dionysios and Ares was very much worshipped in "Greek Thrace" as opposed to "Scythian Thrace"

[Orphic_Hymn]

Akritas

Interesting question and I actually like the idea of looking into it...

While I haven't really gotten into Homer's Iliad cause the poetic form makes it kinda hard to deduct conclusions.. It seems that the Hellines of Homer's time, perceived the 'borders' and the people quite differently to the later Hellines.

For example, in Homer's Iliad 14.226 :

"but Hera darted down and left the peak of Olympus on Pieria she stepped and lovely Emathia, and sped over the snowy mountains of the Thracian horsemen, even over their topmost peaks, nor grazed she the ground with her feet; and from Athos she stepped upon the billowy sea"

So we find him indicating that the Southern border of Thrace, reached as far down South as Mount Athos which we know to have been part of the geographical district of Makedonia ..

I'll look into it and come up with more info on Homer and later writer's accounts, maybe even turn it into a little article about Thrace and the Thracian tribes if enough info is gathered...
After the Skops claiming Makedonia, we have the Bulgarians conveniently forgetting they were Mongol tribes and claiming to be decendants of the Thracians...

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

No kidding. So there is a possibility they are Greek even from the start? Any chance of ever really knowing? For now, I'll just say no (with skeptisicm maybe), b/c I want to know for sure before advocating the idea.

[Mygdonia]

I don't think we can say they were Greek for sure. But whats the best way we can find out?

In Homers Illiad Thracians and Acheans never required translators.

Whats the next best way ? Dig under Thrace's soil and see what you find.. over 80% of archaeological evidence in Thrace points to that they were a Greek tribe.

[akritas]

Orphic
Bulgarians are not the only that claiming this one. Are and the known Slavs. With the Paleothilic Continuity Theory
This was the reason that I am asking you.
Read this and the reference links... you will find them intresting. They mention and the Herododus:)
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36

[Ptolemy]

No kidding. So there is a possibility they are Greek even from the start? Any chance of ever really knowing? For now, I'll just say no (with skeptisicm maybe), b/c I want to know for sure before advocating the idea.

This site has online the "History of Thrace" from K. Kourtidis written in 1932. Its in Greek but you will learn everything about ancient Thrace.

http://alex.eled.duth.gr/Eldoseis/kourtidis/texts/contents.htm

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

I'm an Anglophone, but do have some Hellenic language skills (although my brothers would argue that,:laugh: ) . I hope the Greek I know can help with this. If not I hope to find an English version. Thanks Perseas.

[HellenicPride]

That is one issue that always left me dumfounded the history of the Thracians. Although I must admit I am no historian or expert but from articles I have read in the past it does seem that the Thracians were greek. Im really going to start to look into this subject.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

This one has confused me too. I did, or perhaps should say, do think they were not originally Greek, but were Hellenized. There seems to be some conflicting evidence, but at this point, I will say, the original Thracians were not Hellenes, but were Hellenized during ancient times, so they did become Greek. However, I just don't know for sure.

[Mygdonia]

This one has confused me too. I did, or perhaps should say, do think they were not originally Greek, but were Hellenized. There seems to be some conflicting evidence, but at this point, I will say, the original Thracians were not Hellenes, but were Hellenized during ancient times, so they did become Greek. However, I just don't know for sure.

Latest research according to the link provided above.

In particular this link "The Roots of Thracians" http://alex.eled.duth.gr/Eldoseis/kourtidis/texts/02katagw.htm

States the following:

Thracians, Phrygians, Trojans, Illyrians, Macedonians and Greeks all belong to the Pelasgian root.

Futhermore, the "Aryan" IndoGerman root belongs to Indians, Persians, Phrygians, Armenians, Pelasgians, Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks, Latins, Celts, Germans and Slavs.

So according to this quote

Άλλ' ανεξαρτήτως της εκ των Πελασγών καταγωγής τών Θρακών είνε γεγονός αναμφισβήτητον, ότι οί Θράκες κατά την νεολιθικήν εποχήν (2200 —4000 π. Χ.) συνώδευσαν τους Πελασγούς εις τα ενδότερα της Ελλάδος με χαρακτήρα αμφοτέρων εκπολιτιστικόν και όχι επιδρομικόν ή ληστρικόν.

Thracians were Pelasgian in the neolithic era.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

So is it possible they were early Hellenic, then non Hellenized, then re-Hellenized? Oh boy, this may be toatl BS, or totally true. THanks for all the info guys, keep it coming. Please pardon my ignorance on the topic, I feel quite lost when it comes to Thrace. Macedonia and Epiros, not a problem, but Thrake, I need help. hahaha

[akritas]

An intresting quote that given from Xenophon into Anabasis


Upon hearing these words Seuthes (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Seuthes&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman) said that he should not distrust any one who was an Athenian; for he knew, he said, that the Athenians (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Athenians&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman) were kinsmen of his, and he believed they were loyal friends.
[Xenophon, Anabasis,VII,2,31]

According to tradition, through the marriage of the Thracian (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Thracian&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman) Tereus (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Tereus&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman) with Procne (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Procne&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman), daughter of the Athenian king Pandion (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Pandion&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman).As you see there was a close connection between the Thracians and Athenians.

[HellenicPride]

So its safe to say that Thracians is a touchy subject with out enough information to determine exactly if they were Hellenes or not? That is what it seems.

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Welcome to the forum Paniskos. Thanks for the information. You helped clarify things.

As for the Pelasgian origins, I know little of it although I have heard of it. Interesting if we were all sprung from the same tribes and developed from there, if there is any truth to that. Maybe that is what Mygdonia was getting at in some form.

I do want to learn more on this as it is very interesting. For now I will assume the ancient Thracians were not Greek and then they were Hellenized.

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[olvios]

Still a great number of them were hellenized making western & eastern thrace a densely populated by greeks area.North thrace and above werent hellenized by the greek element as those southern but as Rigas Feraios said once you you speak Greek up to the Dunabe.

[Flipper]

The coast of Thrace was inhabited by Greeks. Ionians specificaly. Thassos that is considered a Thracian Island was inhabited by Cadmians. Northern Thrace had nothing to do with us except from a Hellinization that occured.

Aristotelis mentions Thrace as a part of the Hellinic world. Not all of Thrace ofcourse but almost where todays borders go.

[Mygdonia]

When Basil II moved the Macedonians from Makedonia to Thrace in the Byzantine Themata of the 11th century AD, Macedonians and Thracians mixed.

Thracians were Romans or Greco-Romans earlier than the 11th century AD.

Capital of Thrace is disputed but Byzantine is as good as any.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Has anyone read any works lately that may help shed light on the subgect. We haven't touched this thread since August so I thought maybe someone has learned something new.

[pankration]

In his book "The Life Of Greece" the historian and traveller Will Durant wrote that Thrace was a "densely populated" region of "Hellenized" cities. It was composed of an overflow of Dorian settlers. Although there may have been indigenous people there before the Greeks, for all intents and purposes, Thrace was Greek.

[Christov]

A new discovery from the last years: http://www.perperikon.bg/home.php

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[akritas]

Paniskos I think that you didnt read well the previous posts.Almost speak for the Hellenization of the not Greeks Thracians and not the Thracians were Greeks.And I like to see your arguments as about this issue.Actually there are many books that support the Hellenizing theory of the Southern Thracians via the Odrysian kingdom.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

u guys do realise what went wrong and FYROMs political agenta goes forth while ours sinks in the abyss, dont u?

In case u dont is that nobody takes us for serious because we are prone in talking serius bullshit all the time and -unlike with the feelings of pitty that foreign people have for the poor Bulgarians of FYROM who btw talk even bigger crap than ourselves- the westerns dont sympathise us any more like it happened when they decided to help us kick the Turks and revive a Greek state after a couple of thousand years. The truth is we dont deserve sympathy, we deserve our doom.

Because of certain more than "loud" Greek dudes who believe every bullshit they hear or read and easily reproduce it, many westerns mock us and they have every right to do so given the bullshits I come across now and then when I surf the web which unfortunately become popular very easily.

Some of these bullshits are about the Thracians being Greek which nearly approach the level of the saketos/liako theories

start reading about the ethnic ancient thracian people and tell me if they look any greek to u (not u "pankration", I noticed u are historian or something so u know already)
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/herodotus/herodotus_history_book5.php

of course the Thracian coasts of Aegian (and later those in euxeinos pontos) were full of greek colonies but those were Greek lads not Thracians. Lets distinct each other the same way lets say we distinct the Lydians, Phrygians, Paphlagonians, Karians (IE) and the Kappadocians, Kilicians (non IE I think) from the ionian and dorian Greeks who lived in the coasts of Asia Minor. Are they Greek? Of course not. Are the Ionian dodekapolis and the Dorian exapolis Greek? Of course yes


Whatever dude. If you think that is where I was coming from, I suggest you read again. Honestly man, that was out there.

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[akritas]

hi akritas I guess I dont need to repost an earlier post of yours implying that the Thracians were kinsmen to the Greeks, do I? ;)

You can post anything that you want (if you mean the Xenophon).My opinion is known and because you are new in the forum is better to read my posts regarding in what is my opinion as about the Thracians.
Greeks and Thracians beyond the Rhodopes written sources hints of the extensive contacts enjoyed by the Odrysian kings and their followers with various parts of the Aegean. The earliest evidence comes from burials at Duvanli (modern Zhitnitsa, 30 km north of Plovdiv) close to the main road from Plovdiv to Karlovo and the Troian Pass. Also the tumuli material announced so far suggests that some of the burials might be as early as the two from Duvanli. A coin of 'Aigai' with the incuse square reverse would confirm that Greek objects were penetrating thus far before the 460s.

Discussions of Odrysian relations with the Greek coastal cities have been dominated by the tribute which Thukydides states was paid by Greek cities and Thracians alike (2. 97. 3), in addition to the Delian League contributions to Athens. Reductions of tribute in the Thraceward region, particularly among the cities of the western shore of the Hellespont, together with the anomalous minting of some north Aegean cities, notably Abdera, Akanthos, and Maroneia, in spite of the Athenian Coinage Decree, have commonly been interpreted as measures to alleviate the phoros imposed by the Odrysian kings.Such arguments combine intrinsically ambiguous types of data which do not correspond to each other. Most of these cities continued to issue their new tetradrachms and some of them travelled into the interior but by no means all.

From the above you can see the Greek influence in South Thrace. Odrysian society has features in common with the Celtic chiefdoms of western Europe. The importance of overseas contacts had already modified existing social roles and functions. Seuthes had a personal ambassador, Medosades, who apparently spoke Greek, a Greek-speaking wine-bearer, and a bilingual interpreter, Abrozelmes, as well as having a tolerably good command of Greek himself.

This call hellenization!!!

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Paniskos, you did take my posts the wrong way. Yes, I do want to know, and I would think it is a very interested thing if true. Do not take part truths and turn them into something else please. Guess what, I am not even Greek, I am Canadian of Greek decent. I am as Anglo Saxon in many ways as I am Greek. LET ME STATE I COULNDN'T GIVE SHIT IF THACE IS GREEK OR NOT. TO BE HONEST, LIKE I SAID, I DON'T THINK IT IS, BUT WAS HELLENIZED. IN FACT, IF THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT NONE OF THESE CULTURES ARE GREEK THEN I WOULD NOT GIVE A SHIT. THAT INCLUDES MACEDONIA, EPIRUS, ATHENS, SPARTA, ETC....... ANY CLEARER EXPLANATION NEEDED? The evidence does show that those places were and are Greek and yes I am proud of it as it is my heritage. If you want the truth then dig. Archeological evidence and specific writings are amongst the best sources. I can't help the way you feel about things, but I can dicuss things amongst people here and bounce ideas. When the fcuk did that ever become goosestepping type nationalism that was alluded to? By the way, I have a degree in history so I am unsure how I became a goosestepping peasant. I always thought we were here to talk about ideas and support it with evidence, not to dump on each other.

Pardon me if I seemed aggresive here, but I do not deserve this. I honestly apologize if you take offence, but do not for pointing out this to all people, Greeks and non-Greeks who take this ridiculous road. I am not even angry or want to yell or anything like that, but I think I had to spell it out for those coming to these asinine and insidious conclusions. Funny though dude, I do agree with much of your jist, wanting evidence, etc... and not claiming everything to be Greek b/c that is complete horse shit. We can't just come out of no where and start dumping on people and that is not the way to guide people we may think have gone south. Nor is it the way to discuss ideas. I will also commend you on one other thing, Pankration most certainly does know his history and many many other things.

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[akritas]

This that I hate in the debates is the irony and the “supposing” or arbitraries explanations in the arguments of the others.

So dear paniskos…

I gave you simple examples of the Odryssian rules(archaelogical and documentaries).You didn’t realize what I am talked and what I was point out in my previous pots.So I will be more details for the last time....

With the annexation of Thrace to Macedon comes a distinct change in the nature of the archaeological sources. The tension created by rival Athenian and Macedonian claims for the possession of key sites disappears and with it a wealth of documentary evidence. This is compensated for by a series of inscriptions and archaeological and numismatic finds. In the planned city of Seuthopolis we have direct confirmation of the new Odrysian line founded by Seuthes III and ample evidence of urban sophistication on many levels.

There are three periods as Hammond, Archibald and several others mention....

-The Odryssian Rule evidence.I gave some ant I don’t have time to show you more evidence.Are enouph and you by-pass it.

-The Macedo-Thracian Rule evidence. The ninety-six Thasian amphora stamps include four signed Aristophanes), which are dated before the final quarter of the 4th century as Michel Debidour's outline (and still tentative) chronology.The earliest city stamps parallel those from the fill of the tumuli at Koprinka.

-The Hellenistic Rule evidence. Is known but as I see you rejected without argyments

The episode with the amabassador is obnious your ignorance as about the Xenophon and the documentaries. Xenophon describes a delegation of Parian ambassadors passing through the court of Seuthes II, equipped with presents intended for Amadokos and his wife, with whom the Parians were intending to make an alliance ( Anab. 7. 3. 16). Attempts were made to dissuade the ambassadors from going on inland and to persuade them to transfer their diplomatic efforts in Seuthes' direction. Xenophon had himself only just crossed over from Parion to Seuthes' territory. In fact there were ambassadors from other Greek cities also persent, so this cannot have been an unusual event.


Summirises I gave you
-archaeological facts (I forget of course intentionally the famous coinage evidence)
-documentaries facts(xenophon and you rejected as I see, is your opinion)

...and I want to show me your facts and not your comments in mine and dont irony please.

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[akritas]

You didnt give just not one evidence in order to support your claim...but

Maybe I m slow but I dont get what that has to do with the hellenisation of the ethnic thracians...

Is your previous post. Since when we have the modern term ""ethnic Thracians"" at the Classic and Archaic period ?

u want to see the facts of the non hellenisation? Its like asking somebody the facts that UFO dont exist
..I hope I dont look like a "smart ass" but I need evidence for such stuff and not simple naming the relations between the Odryssian rule and the Athenians or MAcedonians
Is not UFO as you said .We have facts.The Rominized inscriptions in Moesia, Dacia and in South Thrace the Greek ones.

You can check them in the below link

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/search_main.html

and finally for your informations the connections between the ProtoThracian and the Mucenaun culture is more close in the last decades because the excavations in Bulgaria. As you "know" in the 4th International Congress of Thracology (1984) was held in the Museum Boymans-van Beuningen(Holland) ""Thracians and Mycenaeans"" was the theme name for the symposium, which held discussions pertaining to the potential ethnic, cultural, religious, and linguistic interrelations between proto-Thracians and proto-Greeks (i.e.Mycenaes) It was believed that such interrelations had to exist since both groups have lived in the same geographic area in the past. According to Alexander Fol, the concept of "Mycenean Thrace" was first developed in 7Os in order to explain the relative cultural unity between the Thracians and the Myceneans.Do you know it? Do you want some names of the symosium?
Archaeologists

Alexander Fol– Thracians and Mycenaeans: Methodology of the Parallelism
D. F. Easton – Schliemann's Excavations at Troy
Elizabeth French – Possible Northern Intrusions at Mycenae
R. F. Hoddinott – Thracians, Myceneans, and the 'Trojan Question'
Of course also you "know" that the latter the Northern neigbours(Bulgarians) tried to take by theirs side in order to show in the world how close are in the ancient Thracians?

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

I think we should all re-read the title of this thread. That should displell any nonsense as to what is going on. As for closing the thread, absolutely not at this point as I want to learn more about the Hellenization process and what happened to the Thracians. Once again, I state, as far as I am concerened the origianl Thracians were not Hellenes. If this thread becomes a battle where we nit pick semantics, then I will truly be disappointed. It is to discuss history and ideas. Akritas, once again, you have shown class in your dealings with people. To all our members, please discuss ideas based on archeologiacal evidence, primary and secondary sources. This thread will not be closed at this time!!!!

[akritas]

Philip you just meet one from the Greek that usually you can find in the Greek forums. Was a good debate, a debate that usually I had done to the past against Bulgarians and Romanians.
You can read from them the similar comments with the FYROMacedonians like ............."""we dont have find any Thracian inscription in the Classic and Hellenistic era but in the cities they talked Thracian.Was not Hellinized or Rominized"""!! .
Without any proof, just an arbitery conclusion.:p

[Euklid]

Just a comment:

I can understand Paniskos's thesis, as Hellenolagneia has become a trend within certain circles....and it certainly does not cater for our cause.

However Paniskos...with the exception of a few individuals...the environment of this forum and its attributes do not follow such patterns.

Concise...and accurate information is the main logo of this board...and thanks to Akritas and Ptolemy essentially it is a reality as well.

So, i suggest to Paniskos to be more moderate(even though i can see the tone, some might not want to and bottom line they don't have to) when addressing certain individuals but also to the forum members to moderate themselves when it comes down to accepting certain things as fact and then advertising them around as such for we do not want to become Fyromians now; or do we?

Edit: The title of this thread is very much in place...i am guessing that Paniskos believes that certain Greeks will mistranslate it and go around advertising it as "Thrace is Greek"...etc.

Regards.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

So, i suggest to Paniskos to be more moderate(even though i can see the tone, some might not want to and bottom line they don't have to).

Please ellaborate Euklid. Thank you.

[Euklid]

There is not much to elaborate my friend.

Paniskos was very ironic and sarcastic...and some people got a bit pissed off(you inc. if am not mistaken).

The tone of Paniskos is a classic VP(Voreia Proasteia) tone.....those who live or deal with VP can distinguish it from km away...while yourself, Akritas or anybody else doesnt have to excuse him for such sarcasm.

Thats all am saying.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Thanks mate. As for sarcasm, you don't know my circle of mates. I am all to familiar with it, and no complaints of that. You have no idea. ANyhow, Merry Christmas to you all.

[paniskos]

in the macedonia highlands under the hellenic sky

[akritas]

......just for your information (ta upoloipa ta afino gia ta meloi tou forum) that the only book that I have from Georgiadis publications is from Sarantos Kargakos and speak for the Helleinikothta thw Makedonias. ;)
And my library is HUGE!!!!!!!!

[Euklid]

Paniskos...i like the VP mate....even though am koloPireotis myself.

Anyway...as i see you havent been to forums for very long.

Before jumping into conclusions mate i have to remind you that here and every single place as such have a curtain...nationalism you might call it.....watching the back i would.

Some people in this forum have dealt with the most disgusting people in the world....and through this very same "nationalism" they have managed to overcome certain obstacles and rise above.

You mouth rushes a bit...and that is as much a mistake as the one you are arguing against.

This is not a coffee table mate...nor is IRC or Messenger.

This place has a its one style...which has been formed over the past year that this forum has been functioning.

Also many poeple do not speak perfect Greek...and indeed some conclusions might be arbitrary.

Me liga logia min protrexeis...to minima pernaei kai en oligois.

An esy theleis to forum to sugkekrimeno na ginei moderate...the way that you perceive moderation...then just chill out here...and try to contribute for the Mcedonian cause as well as for the "moderation" cause.

Polloi edo den symfonoume metaksy mas...alla sto vomo tis diplomatias thysiazoume sygkekrimena attitudes.

In anyway...nice to have you around...kai that ta poume kai apo konta gia kana kafe stin Ellada..elpizo na skaso lian syntomos.

Ante tsiou.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Paniskos..

I honestly have no idea what you're going on about.. The first question I'd like to ask is WHAT do you consider Thrace.. and of course WHEN do you believe that this interaction (if you believe there was any) took place ??

A couple of other notes/questions..

Keeping in mind that Homer speaks of Dodona as the seat of Pelasgic Zeus.. should we believe that this was Thracian influence/origin, since although he's titled Pelasgian (do note that Herodotus indicates that Hellines and Pelasgians were of the same 'race'), Dodoni was situated in what they the considered Thrace (untill the Makedones took over) ??

Or should we consider Orpheus an ethnic Thracian when we know that not only according to traditions he was born by one of the purely Hellinic muses (daughter of Pierus son of Magnes) Kaliope, but also took part in the Hellinic Argonaut's expedition.. not to neglect to mention that he was born in Pieria.[I didn't mention Oiagros since his backround is obscure)

How about Thamyris who's refered to as Thracian in Homer (Iliad 2.595)???
Do we suggest he's an ethnic Thracian based on Homer's use of the 'T' word.. or do we look into his actions and the fact that his father Philammon was known to dwell in Parnassos ??

[Teukros]

What I learned by reading some sources about Thracians and Greeks is that they were originate from common people but the first remained in a lower level of culture so they advanced their own dialect,difficult to understand but they still were the first cousins of Greeks,weren't they?

[Truth Bearer]

The coast of Thrace was inhabited by Greeks. Ionians specificaly. Thassos that is considered a Thracian Island was inhabited by Cadmians. Northern Thrace had nothing to do with us except from a Hellinization that occured.

Aristotelis mentions Thrace as a part of the Hellinic world. Not all of Thrace ofcourse but almost where todays borders go.
Spot on
We colonized the Thracian coastal areas from before the Illiad and pushed the barbarians up land.They Hellenized after Lysimachus became king of the region during the reign of the successors.

[PAO123]

According to Konstantinos Plevris, who is by the way one of the best Ancient Greek historians out there in my oppinion, Thrace is more Greek than all of Greece. You can watch the episode in which he talks about Thrace by downloading these 2 rapidshare links RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting (http://rapidshare.com/files/55237214/thraki1.mp3.html) RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting (http://rapidshare.com/files/55238588/thraki2.mp3.html) Plevris brings out some very good points on how Thrace is Greek. Note that this is in audio and in Greek only.

[Peace Lover]

Thracians

The ancient Thracians were a group of Indo-European tribes who spoke the extinct Thracian language - a scarcely attested branch of the Indo-European language family. Those peoples inhabited the Eastern, Central and Southern part of the Balkan peninsula, as well as the adjacent parts of Eastern Europe.

Thracians inhabited the ancient provinces of: Thrace, Moesia, Dacia, Scythia Minor, Sarmatia, Bithynia, Mysia, Macedonia, Pannonia, and other regions on the Balkans and Anatolia. This area extends over most of the Balkans region, and the Getae north of the Danube as far as beyond the Bug.[1]. The branch of science that studies the ancient Thracians and Thrace is called Thracology.

Origins

The prehistoric origins of the Thracians remain obscure, in absence of written historical records. Evidence of proto-Thracians in the prehistoric period depends on remains of material culture. Proto-Thracian tombs can be found dating back to 3000 BC[2], when what can be termed as 'proto-Thracian' culture began to form.[3] It is generally proposed that a proto-Thracian people developed from a mixture of indigenous peoples and Indo-Europeans from the time of Proto-Indo-European expansion in the Early Bronze Age[4] when the latter, around 1500 BC, conquered the indigenous peoples[5].

Modern linguistics classifies the Thracians as an Indo-European people who spoke a satemized language, which links them to Albanians, Slavs, Balts and Ancient Iranian peoples. It is however disputed whether the satem languages actually descend from a later than PIE ancestor (thus forming a true satem subgroup of Indo-European) or whether satemization was caused by areal contact or parallel evolution. Links to the Greek branch (a centum language) of the Indo-European language family are also being investigated.

The ethnonym Thraikios (ancient Greek for Thracian) may have the same etymology as Graikos [2]. Graikoi originally referred to a Boeotian tribe of Hellenes who became known to the Latins at an early date.

The first historical record about the Thracians is found in the Iliad, where they appear as allies of the Trojans, hailing from Thrace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Trak_peltasta.jpg/471px-Trak_peltasta.jpg

[Peace Lover]

Classical period

By the 5th century BC, the Thracian presence was pervasive enough to have made Herodotus (book 5) call them the second-most numerous people in the part of the world known by him (after the Indians), and potentially the most powerful, if not for their disunity. The Thracians in classical times were broken up into a large number of groups and tribes, though a number of powerful Thracian states were organized, such as the Odrysian kingdom of Thrace and the Dacian kingdom of Burebista. A type of soldier of this period called the Peltast probably originated in Thrace.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Thracian_Horseman_Histria_Museum.jpg/445px-Thracian_Horseman_Histria_Museum.jpg

In that period contacts between the Thracians and Classical Greece intensified which led to strengthening Greek influences in Thracian society, culture and handcrafts. Because their language had no written tradition, in some regions the Thracian aristocracy and administration adopted Classical Greek for an official language and Thracian merchants utilised it as a 'lingua franca' in their contacts with other tribes and peoples. As a result a level of Hellenization was observed in the following centuries and it was deeper imposed by the Macedonian conquests over the Thracian territory in 3rd century BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

[Peace Lover]

Extinction of the ethnicity and language

The ancient languages of these people had already gone extinct and their cultural influence was highly reduced due to the repeated barbaric invasions of the Balkans by Celts, Huns, Goths, and Sarmatians, accompanied by persistent hellenization, romanisation and later slavicisation. The ethnic contribution of the Thracian and Daco-Getic population, who had lived on the territory of modern Bulgaria and Romania has been long debated among the scientists during the 20th century. Some recent genetic studies suggest that these peoples have indeed made a significant contribution to the genes of these nations.[3] After they were subjugated by the Macedonian king Alexander the Great and consecutively by the Roman empire, most of the Thracians eventually became Hellenised[6] (in the province of Thrace) or Romanised (in Moesia, Dacia, etc.). The Romanised tribes of Dacia later became the ethnic substratum of the Vlach people (that first appeared in historical documents in the 10th century) who evolved into modern Romanians.

In the 6th century some Thracian tribes south of the Danube river made contacts with the invading Slavs and were later Slavicised. Thus they became one of the main ethnic elements in the consolidation of the Bulgarian nation in 8-9th century. Linguistic evidence about this is the presence of Thracian and direct Latin loanwords in Old Bulgarian and modern Bulgarian language.

Some scholars have proposed that present-day Albanians may be descendants of Thracian tribes who maintained their language (see also: Albanian Language). Bulgarian historians[attribution needed] also consider it possible for the Vlach and Karakachani people of Bulgaria to be descendants respectively of Romanised and Hellenised Thracian tribes.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/ThracianCoin.JPG/800px-ThracianCoin.JPG

[Peace Lover]

Archaeology

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Bergaios_thracian_king.jpg

The archaeological research of the Thracian culture started in the 20th century and especially after World War II, mainly on the territory of Southern Bulgaria. As a result of intensive excavation works in the 1960s and 1970s a number of Thracian tombs and sanctuaries were discovered. More significant among them are: the Tomb of Sveshtari, the Tomb of Kazanlak, Tatul, Seuthopolis, Perperikon, the Tomb of Aleksandrovo, Sarmizegetusa in Romania, etc.

Also a large number of elaborately crafted gold and silver treasure sets from the 5th and 4th century BC were unearthed. In the following decades those were exposed in museums around the world, thus gaining popularity and becoming an emblem of the ancient Thracian culture. Since the year 2000, Bulgarian archaeologist Georgi Kitov has made discoveries in Central Bulgaria which were summarized as "The Valley of the Thracian Kings".

On 19 August 2005, some Bulgarian archaeologists announced they had found the first Thracian capital, which was situated near Karlovo in Bulgaria. A lot of polished ceramic artifacts (pieces of roof-tiles and Greek-like vases) were discovered revealing the fortune of the city. The Bulgarian Ministry of Culture declared its support to the excavations.

In Dabene, Bulgaria, a cache of more than 15,000 gold Thracian artifacts were discovered, including thousands of rings. In August 2006 a sensational archaeological find was made near the village of Dubovo. A Thracian dagger made of an alloy of gold and platinum, sharp, and in perfect condition, was found in a tomb near the village of Dubovo. [4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Thracian_treasure_NHM_Bulgaria.JPG/800px-Thracian_treasure_NHM_Bulgaria.JPG

[Peace Lover]

Sources

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/Thracian_tribes.JPG

The Iliad records that the Thracians from around the Hellespont and also the Thracian Cicones fought on the side of the Trojans (Iliad, book II). The Odyssey records that Odysseus and his men raided Thrace on their way back home from war. Many mythical figures, such as the god Dionysus, princess Europa and the hero Orpheus were borrowed by the Greeks from their Thracian neighbours.

In book 7 of his Histories, Herodotus describes the equipment of the Thracians fighting under the Persians,

The Thracians went to the war wearing the skins of foxes upon their heads, and about their bodies tunics, over which was thrown a long cloak of many colours. Their legs and feet were clad in buskins made from the skins of fawns; and they had for arms javelins, with light targes, and short dirks. This people, after crossing into Asia, took the name of Bithynians; before, they had been called Strymonians, while they dwelt upon the Strymon; whence, according to their own account, they had been driven out by the Mysians and Teucrians. The commander of these Asiatic Thracians was Bassaces the son of Artabanus.

In book 5, Herodotus describes the customs of various Thracian tribes.

The Thracians who live above the Crestonaeans observe the following customs. Each man among them has several wives; and no sooner does a man die than a sharp contest ensues among the wives upon the question which of them all the husband loved most tenderly; the friends of each eagerly plead on her behalf, and she to whom the honour is adjudged, after receiving the praises both of men and women, is slain over the grave by the hand of her next of kin, and then buried with her husband. The others are sorely grieved, for nothing is considered such a disgrace.
The Thracians who do not belong to these tribes have the customs which follow. They sell their children to traders. On their maidens they keep no watch, but leave them altogether free, while on the conduct of their wives they keep a most strict watch. Brides are purchased of their parents for large sums of money. Tattooing among them marks noble birth, and the want of it low birth. To be idle is accounted the most honourable thing, and to be a tiller of the ground the most dishonourable. To live by war and plunder is of all things the most glorious. These are the most remarkable of their customs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Thrace-ostrusha.jpg/714px-Thrace-ostrusha.jpg

The gods which they worship are but three, Mars, Bacchus, and Dian. Their kings, however, unlike the rest of the citizens, worship Mercury more than any other god, always swearing by his name, and declaring that they are themselves sprung from him.
Their wealthy ones are buried in the following fashion. The body is laid out for three days; and during this time they kill victims of all kinds, and feast upon them, after first bewailing the departed. Then they either burn the body or else bury it in the ground. Lastly, they raise a mound over the grave, and hold games of all sorts, wherein the single combat is awarded the highest prize. Such is the mode of burial among the Thracians.

In contrast, the Greek historian Strabo describes the Thracians living in twenty-two tribes. [7]

Josephus claims the founder of the Thracians was the biblical character Tiras, son of Japheth:

Thiras also called those whom he ruled over Thirasians; but the Greeks changed the name into Thracians. AotJ I:6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

[Peace Lover]

Physical characteristics of the Thracians

Academic studies have concluded that Thracians had physical characteristics typical of Mediterraneans with dark eyes and hair. According to Dr. Beth Cohen, Thracians had “the same dark hair and the same facial features as the Greeks.”[8] Furthermore, Dr. Aris N. Poulianos states that Thracians like modern Bulgarians belong mainly to the Aegean athropological type.[9] Recent genetic analysis comparing DNA samples of ancient Thracian individuals with individuals from modern ethnicities place Italian, Albanian and Greek individuals in closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than Romanian and Bulgarian individuals. [10]

In contrast, a well-known fragment, Xenophanes comments:

Men make gods in their own image; those of the Ethiopians are black and snub-nosed, those of the Thracians have blue eyes and red hair.

(See the Albani in modern central Albania)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/ClassicalBalkans1849.jpg

The contradiction between the physical characteristics of Thracians deduced from anthropological evidence on one hand, and Xenophanes' description on the other can be accounted for by analysing the uniform Hellas tribal classification perspective regarding 'barbarians' to the north.[citation needed] The Greeks identified themselves as civilized, while those to the north of their classical borders were seen as Barbarians. Greeks attributed differing physical features to the so-called barbarians then they did to themselves. A recent statistical comparison [11] of ancient and modern Greek skulls resulted in the discovery of “a remarkable similarity in craniofacial morphology between modern and ancient Greeks.” Supportive of this study, American anthropologist J. Lawrence Angel [12] noted that from the earliest times to the present “racial continuity in Greece is striking.” Buxton [13] who had earlier studied Greek skeletal material and measured modern Greeks, especially in Cyprus, found that the modern Greeks “possess physical characteristics not differing essentially from those of the former [ancient Greeks].”

From this evidence, including the cited works by Cohen and Poulianos, it is clear that Ancient Greeks were themselves dark haired/eyed. Thus in order to disassociate themselves from those whom they saw as inferior, Greeks often attributed fair features to the less advanced ethnic groups while idealizing black hair and brown eyes, so-called dark features, by way of poetic words melanan and melampugos that functioned as symbols of strength, civilizaton and intelligence.[14] The academic suggestion[citation needed] is that Greeks looked upon their northern neighbours, the Thracians, as culturally inferior barbarians who were according to the Xenophanes' reference described as having the typical barbarian feature of "purros" meaning red hair and blue eyes. This implies that while the two separate academic studies conducted by Cohen and Poulianos suggest that Thracians have also had dark features, Xenophanes described them as fair, because he was conditioned to view barbarians in general as having such physical traits.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

[Peace Lover]

Famous Thracians and Dacians

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/ThracianTribes.jpg/800px-ThracianTribes.jpg

* Amadocus, a king after whom Amadok Point was named.

* Burebista was a king of Dacia between 70 BC - 44 BC who united under his rule Thracians in a large territory, from today's Moravia in the West, to the Bug river (Ukraine) in the East, and from Northern Carpathians to Southern Dionysopolis.

* Sitalces was a king of the Thracian Odrysian state. An ally of the Athenians during the Peloponnesian war

* Decebalus, a king of Dacia ultimately defeated by the forces of Trajan.

* Spartacus was a Thracian enslaved by the Romans, who led a large slave uprising in what is now Italy in (73 BC - 71 BC). Before being defeated, his army of escaped gladiators and slaves defeated several Roman legions in what is known as the Third Servile War.

References

1. ^ The catalogue of Kimbell Art Museum's 1998 exhibition Ancient Gold: The Wealth of the Thracians indicates a historical extent of Thracian settlement including most of the Ukraine, all of Hungary and parts of Slovakia [1]
2. ^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5251266.stm Ancient dagger found in Bulgaria, BBC News (2006)
3. ^ http://books.google.com/books?id=LTbc1GIAwcIC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=thracians+3000+bc&source=web&ots=_s1TWE7tWW&sig=b245pzLrZT2ukkSwMHGc88zgwRw The Celtic Encyclopedia, by Harry Mountain (1998), p. 105.
4. ^ Hoddinott (1981), p. 27.
5. ^ http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-1521%28197722%292%3A35%3A1%3C2%3ATT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-E&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage The Thracians by Lionel Casson, p. 3.
6. ^ A Grammar of Modern Indo-European by Carlos Quiles,ISBN 8461176391,2007,page 76,"Most of the Thracians were eventually Hellenised(in the province of Thrace)"
7. ^ Strabo's Geography, Book VII, Fragments, paragraph 47
8. ^ Cohen, Beth, ed., 2000, Not the Classical Ideal: Athens and the Construction of the Other in Greek Art, Leiden
9. ^ Poulianos, Aris N., 1961, The Origin of the Greeks, Ph.D. thesis, University of Moscow, supervised by F.G.Debets
10. ^ Cardos, G., Stoian V., Miritoiu N., Comsa A., Kroll A., Voss S., Rodewald A., Paleo-mtDNA analysis and population genetic aspects of old Thracian populations from South-East of Romania, Romanian Journal of Legal Medicine, 2004 Paleo-mtDNA analysis and population genetic aspects of old Thracian populations from South-East of Romania@@AMEPARAM@@/docinfo/326027?access_key=blud3ym3fnt36@@AMEPARAM@@326027@ @AMEPARAM@@blud3ym3fnt36
11. ^ Argyropoulos, E. et al., 1989, A comparative cephalometric investigation of the Greek craniofacial pattern through 4,000 years, Angle Orthod 1989 Fall;59(3):195-204
12. ^ Angel, J. Lawrence, 1944, A racial analysis of the ancient Greeks: An essay on the use of morphological types, American Journal of Physical Anthropology
13. ^ Buxton, L.H.D., 1920, Physical Anthropology of Ancient and Modern Greeks, Nature, v. 106, pp. 183-185
14. ^ Irwin, E., 1974, Colour Terms in Greek Poetry, Hakkert, Toronto

* Hoddinott, Ralph F. The Thracians. Thames & Hudson (1981), ISBN 0-500-02099-X.
* Best, Jan and De Vries, Nanny. Thracians and Mycenaeans. E.J. Brill Academic Publishers, Boston, MA. (1989), ISBN 90-04-08864-4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

[Morphesau]

ABOUT THE KOMAN GROUP THEORY:THE ILLYRIANS BY DR.WILKES OF LONDON . Wilkes is the foremost living authority on the Illyrians. Yet his work only attempts to identify the Illyrians not only as Albanian but Bosnian as well as Southern Slavic. This information broadens the already established fact that the Illyrians left linguistic and genetic traces all over the balkans but also puts to rest the ALBANIAN MONOPOLY ON ILLYRIAN CULTURAL ROOTS. THE KOMAN GROUP THEORY BECOMES A MOOT POINT. His is the latest comprehensive work on the Illyrian people. In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219:
"NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORTER AND DARKER SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."

Wilkes has only proven through science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European linneage.

John Wilkes correctly puts small percentages of Illyrian descendants among contemporary Southern Slavs, centered around Montenegro and Bosnia and branching out into Dalmatia and south-western Serbia. Wilkes hints that the remenants are slavicized Illyrians and he leans on C.S Coon who insists that Albanians are of mixed Slavic, Italian,Turkish, Armenoid and Illyrian origin.

This work was published in 1991 and based on the newest excavations undertaken in ex-Illyria. Wilkes brings out plenty of the most recent archaeological and anthropological evidence which other's in his field did not have access to.

Ten years after he published this work, the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study proved him correct. Modern science has dealt a huge blow to Albanian attempts to usurpe the Illyrian legacy. He was a decade ahead of his time. Because of his work, many academics within Albania have also come out in favour of accepting the new findings; namely: Kaplan Resuli, Fatos Lubonja, Ardian Qosi and Ardian Vebiu. They are joined by many international critics of the now debunked Albanian-Illyrian theory: Paul, Hirt, Weigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu and many others.


:huh: :huh: :huh: